Media Killers :
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AA: And why do you think in this particular moment in
history we cannot own our innocence? 
ADS: I think it's because it's just like in the Shakespeare plays where there's something that has to be put in order, in order for the—not just in Shakespeare, but in other mythologies, there is a pin out of order that has to be shifted so that every part of the world order can come into being, both in terms of the natural aspects, weather, and everything else, and this social illness. For myself, I think it's because there's so much hatred that we can't possibly contain it, and it's just like... we're sick, we're— KLF: Aristotelian almost. As if everything is controlled, everything is mappable— ADS: I don't think everything's mappable. KLF: No, I'm not saying that. I'm speaking of a perception that the more out of control things become, the more Aristotelian we would like to become— ADS: We'd like to be, but we can't. KLF: So to maintain some semblance of order and control over our violence, which is completely out of control. |
| I have to understand that this was really a war, and that our ways of thinking about it from Harvard or Stanford or wherever- we don't understand what that war is, you know, in South Central. It's a real war. And for the rest of the nation, I don't think they under-stand what that war is, so there's a different morality. But the old morality of the civil rights movement- we can't hang onto that anymore, I don't think. | AA: Yeah, but see, what I don't understand is, I was watching
"Eyes on the Prize" yesterday, and watching that makes me feel this is
no—this chaos that we're going through isn't anything new, that's an anomaly
in history, this is all part of the same—I mean, the incredible social
chaos that surrounded the '50s is sort of covered over. And we've covered
it over with Donna Reed and the "family life" and all of that, "the goodness
that was the '50s, the two-parent household," how everything was just so
wonderful and "we made the best products in the world," but really underneath
all that it was horrible—
ADS: And we had to pay for it. But the difference is, they
were successful in a way. I'm older than you two, and we bought it. Then
in the '60s we said, "This sucks. This is a lie." But at the time we all
sat in front of the television, sat and watched "The Donna Reed Show,"
and "Leave It to Beaver," and all of it, then we thought we were so smart,
we figured out it was all junk and it was a lie. But now—and this is dangerous
to say because I don't understand this—I found myself, on the way to Boston
and in rehearsal for the show you saw, constantly KLF: Trial by media. ADS: Oh, and this trial by media, and all the things that have happened to him already this year, it just makes me worried. And also that it's right on the heels of Woody Allen. I'm worried, and if it is true, then I'm really worried about why there are . . . I'm not a Jungian, but I have a friend who is a Jungian, and who is very interested in this image of the man who never grows up, who's never a man but has to be a boy, and so I'm curious there are so many boys and not men. And why is boyhood so interesting, and then why is boyhood made this crazy sort of, dangerous sort of sick thing. It shouldn't be. It should be a wonderful thing. You know, talk about being, the shoulds. They were having problems with it. |
| AA: But there are other periods in history I think where
the boy/man conflict—
ADS: That's right. So you're saying, "What's so special about right now?" AA: I mean, I've been trained not to say this, but history goes in cycles, things happen . . .a historian would hit me over the head— ADS: Because what's dangerous about that is if you begin to feel that way, then you begin to feel that you can't do anything. We are history. We are history. And every moment in history actually has a lot of contradictions, and what I'm trying to do with my work—and if I have just a tad of success—is to try at the risk of not having universality. People who take themselves quite seriously say to me, "Well, you need for your work to be universal," and my answer is, "I really don't care," because more important to me than that universal thing is, can I take a minute to quickly look at something that just happened and try to document as many details as I can? And hopefully somebody will listen to it. KLF: So how is this uprising different than any others
of the past? ADS: It is different, and this is what's really important, to show the difference. What's bothersome, though, is that people still use the Kerner Commission Report as a point of reference for this one; I read part of the Crown Heights report on that riot, and the Kerner Commission Report is used there. Now that's dangerous. I mean, I'm sure there will be another report, but that's twenty years old, this was different. And one of the most obvious reasons that it's different is that it has many more players. Once again, it's not blacks and whites. Many more players, and power is going to be fought out in a very multifaceted way. Both moral power as well as economic power. And for African Americans, I got so concerned when I was putting together "Twilight," and sort of halfway into it I told the theater to hire yet another dramaturge, an African American dramaturge, because I got scared that I would in fact be less than enough of an advocate for African Americans, because morally the picture wasn't looking very good. And when I went to people who kind of understand morality, to ask them to talk to me about the beating of Reginald Denney, I didn't come up with any answers. AA: When you say morally the picture wasn't looking very good, do you mean because of Reginald Denney's— ADS: Not just because of Reginald Denney, but I think this is why a lot of people didn't know what to say—how can you condone, across the board, all of the destruction targeting all Koreans? On the one hand, I know enough about some things that happened that led up to that, but in order for me to get my head around it, I have to understand that this was really a war, and that our ways of thinking about it from Harvard or Stanford or wherever—we don't understand what that war is, you know, in South Central. It's a real war. And for the rest of the nation, I don't think they understand what that war is, so there's a different morality. But the old morality of the civil rights movement—we can't hang onto that anymore, I don't think. KLF: Would you characterize the war as a cultural war? ADS: Well, it's more than that. I think there's a war between
the cops and young people, I think that the Korean Americans who arm themselves
with guns in their stores do anticipate that anybody black who comes into
the store with a knapsack is going to rob or kill. That's a survival war.
And the gang wars are real wars. So— KLF: But in fact, when you read the papers it seems popular
yet abstract when you read about cultural wars, as if a cultural war only
exists in the newspapers as text. But it's very real. It's real. |
